Talk:Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem
Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem is currently a Royalty, nobility and heraldry good article nominee. Nominated by Surtsicna (talk) at 19:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC) An editor has indicated a willingness to review the article in accordance with the good article criteria and will decide whether or not to list it as a good article. Comments are welcome from any editor who has not nominated or contributed significantly to this article. This review will be closed by the first reviewer. To add comments to this review, click discuss review and edit the page. Short description: Crusader ruler from 1131 to 1152 |
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William of Tyre
[edit]William clearly acknowledges the adulterous relationship between Melisende and Hugh. The sources that suggest that the revolt of 1134 was caused by Fulk's reorganization of the nobility include: Ibn al-Qalanisi and Orderic Vitalis.
The article reads:
Thereafter, wrote the historian William of Tyre, Fulk "never tried to initiate anything, even in trivial matters, with her foreknowledge."
Should this be 'without' rather than 'with', perhaps? Andre Engels 13:00 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)
Adam, we were in at the same time! Sorry but can you copy edit again!! :)
Also.. is there a wiki-way as to why we reduce the second word in a heading back to lower case? As it introduces a second chapter I would think it would be capitalized. Also.. can you help me link up certin things.. like the Melisende Paslster and other important names and events in the text?
Thanx much, Drachenfyre... oh and I have more to list for sources!
- I'm not sure, that's just the Wikipedia style...they're not really "chapters" as such, it's not a book. Also, we only have to link to things once, the first time they appear, so if they occur again you can leave them unlinked. Adam Bishop 05:45, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Alberia
[edit]Alberia Torkenkluvim, where did you get the image you posted on the Melisende page? I am very courious and, if I inturpet correctly, it relfects a Queen accepting fealty from a vassel yes? Is this Melisende?
Thank you very much!
Eleanor and Melisende
[edit]I removed the section about Eleanor and Melisende, it's entirely too speculative and doesn't really belong here. I don't think we should include what "may have" happened. Adam Bishop 7 July 2005 19:58 (UTC)
- Yes Adam I do see your point. It is certin they did meet though, and according to Eleanor biographer Alison Wier Melisende was hostess to the King and Queen of France and Louis is documented in the historical record touring Jerusalem with Melisende. Eleanor was in discrace, according to Wier, and thus she was not mentioned when the couple entered capital. For those that might have liked to see the text in question Here is the text origionally:
- Despite the military and diplomatic setbacks caused by the Second Crusade, in Jerusalem the meeting between Melisende and Eleanor must have had an impact on both women. Melisende was undisputed queen by right, head of a nation and subject to no man. The palace was well appointed with all the Oriental splendor and comforts that western Europe's draughty castles and poor sanitation lacked. From fine quality Persian carpets and wall tapestries, fine silk sheets and clothing, mosaic floors, to bathing and grooming habits, the Jerusalem of Melisende must have seemed a kind of paradise to western Europeans. Eleanor, sure of herself and with the nerve of her youth and renowned beauty, must have been influenced by this. This meeting between the two queens with their shared experiences may have engendered a kind of 'kindred spirit' friendship between them, though Eleanor was in disgrace for alleged infidelity with her uncle in Antioch. Eleanor may have seen Melisende's successes as inspiration, influencing her dealings with her husbands and sons, even with the governance of Aquitaine once Eleanor returned to Poitou. After 11 months Eleanor and Louis departed for France, ending the Second Crusade.Drachenfyre 01:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Translation to English would be Helpful
[edit]My Latin isn't good enough to do it myself, but would someone be able to translate the following section of the article into English:
Of Melisende, William of Tyre wrote "reseditque reginam regni potestas penes dominam Melisendem, Deo amabilem reginam, cui jure hereditario competebat."
Without a translation, it is quite hard to know what is being conveyed. Magic1million (talk) 18:52, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- It is the same William of Tyre quote found in the first subsection:
"the rule of the kingdom remained in the power of the lady queen Melisende, a queen beloved by God, to whom it passed by hereditary right".
I have removed the Latin text. W. Tell DCCXLVI (talk to me!/c) 16:40, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
GA Review
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- This review is transcluded from Talk:Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: Surtsicna (talk · contribs) 19:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 07:20, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
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- B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):
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I have been waiting for this. I will be cruel and uncompromissing, I promise, because I used to dream of completing this article. :) Borsoka (talk) 07:20, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, give it to me hard! I can let you have Fulk :P Surtsicna (talk) 13:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Comments
- ...the Kingdom of Jerusalem, the Principality of Antioch, the County of Tripoli, and the County of Edessa... Do we need the "thes"? Do we have to know the form of government?
- ...in the First Crusade... In?
- ...in 1099... I would say 1098-99.
- ..., also known as Baldwin II,... Delete (it is anachronistic in context).
- Make it clear that she was born in the city of Edessa.
- ...his cousin... PoV
- ...was proclaimed.. I would split this part into a new sentence to avoid ambiguity, and he could be introduced as Baldwin II.
- ...in a near constant state of war... With whom?
- ...men were responsible for the defense... Close paraphrasing?
- ...Latin ruler of Jerusalem... I would describe him as "Frankish" to avoid the introduction of a new adjective for the same idea.
- Morphia took no part in the public life of the kingdom, and neither had Baldwin I's wives Arda of Armenia and Adelaide del Vasto. I would rephrase it because what we know for certain that they did not sign charters.
- Introduce Brisebarre.
- ...was sent to France... By whom? Why France?
- ...personally providing for a force of 100 knights for a year... I would clarify that this happened after he left Outremer.
- ...were to be held by the couple... Why not "were held by the couple"? The present wording raises unnecessary questions. Borsoka (talk) 07:53, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Mayer surmises that Roman refused to accept female succession. Alternative explanations?
- ...to prevent a coup by Alice... Some more context? Can we describe a dowager's attempt to assume the regency for her infant daughter as a coup?
- Delink Joscelin I of Edessa.
- ...to again seize power in Antioch... Again?
- ...marriage contract... This is not mentioned previously.
- Hamilton agrees with Mayer's conclusion that the conflict originated from Fulk's replacement of the kingdom's established nobility with newcomers from Anjou. Mayer should also cited.
- The noblemen may have expected... Attribute this PoV to a scholar.
- ..."young and very handsome" count... Name him.
- ...a secret lover... Delete the adjective.
- Introduce the curia regis with one or two words.
- Introduce Rohard the Elder.
- Fulk himself did not feel safe around his wife's supporters. I would mention the primary source of this statement. Borsoka (talk) 08:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- ..., and the royal couple conceived another child. A son, Amalric, was born in 1136. I would consolidate.
- ..., who had been sent to be raised in a convent during Baldwin II's reign,... Delete.
- Melisende judged that Ioveta was of too high birth to be a mere nun and decided that she should be made an abbess instead. Is this a fact or a PoV?
- ...remove her... I would say "remove her sister who had been born after their father's coronation", because Yovetta's special status was long ago mentioned.
- In 1338... Fix the year.
- There was no royal election because... Is this necessary?
- Baldwin started issuing charters in 1144 at the latest, when he issued one without reference to Melisende; Mayer believes that Melisende soon forbade that any charters be issued in her son's name only. Why does he believe it? Was it the only charter Baldwin issued alone?
- ...had incurred the queen's wrath in the early 1130s by supporting her husband's attempt to exclude her, but he... Delete, or only mention that she had forgiven him.
- ...; Ralph was "almost certainly" the same man who had been chancellor to the English queen Matilda of Boulogne, Melisende's kinswoman, and thus had Melisende's trust I would mention Barber's PoV in a footnote as a PoV, because the kinship between her father and the Boulogne family is uncertain.
- ...but "killed the Franks wherever they could" Who said this?
- I would link the Second Crusade in the first sentence of the third paragraph of section "Holy War" (instead of in the section's first paragraph).
- The leaders of Jerusalem were concerned that Louis would be diverted by Prince Raymond of Antioch, and were relieved when Raymond fell out with the king. Delete.
- ...holy orders... Holy orders?
- A decision to attack Damascus had already been reached... Some context? What is Damascus? Why did they decide.
- ...because Damascus was a valuable ally against Nur al-Din... I would say "because Damascus had so far been a valuable ally against Nur al-Din..." Borsoka (talk) 08:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Instead, ... Delete.
- Scritorium?
- Two claimants to Galilee emerged, Simon and William... This is Mayer's PoV.
- A link to Mirabel?
- Baldwin barely outlived her, dying on 10 February 1163. Delete. Borsoka (talk) 13:27, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- File:Queen Melisende.jpg: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed; fix the caption.
- File:Fulko jeune.jpg: delete (there are too many pictures)
- File:Queen Melisende.jpg: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed; this is the same as the infobox's picture
- File:Fulko dvur.jpg: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed
- File:Atentat.jpg: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed; who is Hugh?
- File:Egerton ms 1139!1 fse005r.jpg: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed
- File:FoulquesofAnjou-death.jpg: US PD tag is needed: US PD tag is needed
- File:Fulko melisenda plac.jpg: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed
- File:Balduin3.jpg: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed
- File:ConcilAkra2.jpg: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed
- File:Baudouin III sermonnant Mélissende.png: US PD tag is needed
- File:Silver denier of Baldwin III of Jerusalem.jpg: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed
- File:609 - Jerusalem - Church of the Virgin.JPG: delete (another picture depicts her tomb) Borsoka (talk) 13:27, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Source review
- References 2a, 2e, 8 are verified.
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