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This is a disgrace for Wikipedia

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I've seen a lot of crap on Wikipedia, but this article looks nothing like a Wikipedia page. What gets me is the manner in which it's written. It's like a promotional material that one can read on shady blog-sites. "There is a growing body of literature regarding the proficient implementation of and adherence". Just have a look at the CBT page. That's how a proper article on psychology is written. Since when does Wikipedia publish opinions on what's "a growing body of [...] the proficient". Gamma1138 (talk) 16:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Genuinely bizarre. It seems as if some of the editors have a weird vested interest in promoting it 97.118.124.225 (talk) 22:33, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They also want to remove the "controversies and criticism" section that a lot of articles have but becomes a big problem when this article and Autism Speaks has it to cover its controversies and criticisms, like the controversies and criticisms related to it being used to abuse children. 134.215.176.89 (talk) 20:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does appear unusual that some major controversies (such as the U.S. Department of Defense's OIG finding that ABA does not meet the agency's standards of proof of efficacy for medical reimbursement) are not explicitly mentioned in this article. Often, the excuse for barring such information is that not enough scholarly secondary sources have referenced the controversy. Meanwhile, ABA industry journals (many of which are ad-supported and routinely allow authors to avoid disclosing conflicts of interest) are considered scholarly sources worthy of citation. It's this veneer of credibility (and the general societal view of Autistic people as eternal children at best and subhuman at worst) that allows ABA practitioners to pass off a cruel pseudoscience designed to take advantage of panicked and desperate parents as supportive at best and "controversial" at worst. The claim that "reforms" have been implemented backed by only a single journal article written primarily by ABA practitioners (citation 24) is especially dubious, and the false "both sides" neutrality running throughout the article is insulting to survivors of ABA (and to the Autistic community more largely). DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 19:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DoItFastDoItUrgent Extremely anecdotal, but I swear it wasn't this bad a year ago(??). In any case, atm this article severely underrepresents and trivializes the Autistic advocacy movement and its criticism of ABA... and barely references the actual (current) concerns of ASAN/etc., which are extremely well-worded (and importantly, formalized) in ASAN's white paper. Although I know there are neurodiversity-affirming and anti-ABA formal "scholarly" papers, I honestly argue that the extent of the socio-cultural movement against ABA itself, alongside the known and referenced methodological and bias issues within the field, warrant a top-level "Critisms" section. Unburnable (talk) 00:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DoItFastDoItUrgent You seem to want it this article say it's abusive and pseudoscientific because of the way it was practiced 60 years ago, and your own POV about it. ATC . Talk 03:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ATC Peddle your "ABA-has-changed" talking points elsewhere. Even the worst abuses that your industry engaged in decades ago still are practiced today (e.g., electric-shock aversive torture at the Judge Rotenberg Center), and "kinder, gentler" methods, like planned ignoring and food-based reinforcement (which are still widely practiced and taught), are deeply harmful and dehumanizing (if not as dramatically harmful and dehumanizing as electric shocks). ABA's overriding goal has always been and always will be to force Autistic people to conform to neurotypical standards, rather than attempt to understand why we act the way we do, encourage acceptance or take a genuinely supportive role. The idea that ABA can be or has been reformed is just as ridiculous as claiming that gay conversion therapists could reform their industry if they took a kinder, gentler approach. You can't fix a house built on a broken foundation. Am I biased against ABA? Yes, in the same way any reasonable person would be biased against any other abusive pseudoscience. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 09:06, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Unburnable I think a lot of factors are responsible for the runaway pro-ABA bias of this and related articles. One is that the Wikipedia community (especially the handful of legacy editors who have crowned themselves Lord Protectors of all articles covering controversial topics) confuse institutional support for something with scientific validity and bend over backward to bar any information or sourcing challenging that institutional support. Another is that ABA practitioners, lobbyists and other assorted promoters have abused Wikipedia's consensus-based editing model to block any substantial changes. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 08:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It also systematically downplays the degree of controversy outside of the autistic advocacy movement. That's really important - the strong implication that it's only autistic activists who see any problem with it is wildly misleading. Oolong (talk) 09:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/06/us/electric-shock-fda-ban.html The only form of aversives continued to be used at the Judge Rotenberg Center was the electric shocks, which the FDA officially banned in 2020. Plus, ABA is not a synonym for EIBI for autism, and the research quality of that sub-discipline belongs in the body—not the lead. ATC . Talk 21:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You aren't serious, right? The FDA did ban it, and the Judge Rotenberg Center successfully got the ban overturned on a legal technicality, which required an act of Congress to correct. Now that the law has been changed, the FDA needs to implement a new ban, which it has not yet done. As someone who apparently follows ABA quite closely (and I assume is employed in the field), you couldn't possibly have been unaware of that. If you were unaware of that, I'm truly speechless.
https://www.wcvb.com/article/5-investigates-judge-rotenberg-center-shock-therapy/42526127 DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 21:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I was not aware that the FDA law was overturned and that residential school still uses the aversive electric shocks. I do not personally believe in the approach, as I view it as a form of torture (in any circumstance). Regardless, one particular school that still uses electric shocks (JRC) has no relevance to this article, but it could be briefly mentioned in a section of the aversive therapy article from an encyclopedic, non-biased viewpoint, in accordance to WP:POV guidelines. ATC . Talk 21:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The JRC's practices are absolutely relevant to the article when ABA International, one of the main ABA bodies in the USA, persistently invited representatives from the JRC to give talks defending their practices, year after year, long after they had been denounced by the UN rapporteur and many others as torture. They finally condemned it in 2022, but this will remain relevant for a long time yet. The BACB appears to have remained silent on this issue, and that's troubling too. Oolong (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We had a failed attempt at dispute resolution last year: [[1]]. After several of people spent hours carefully setting out stalls etc, a would-be mediator commented (without notifying anyone) that they would close the mediation request with no further action taken, if nobody replied quickly enough to two questions, arguably already covered in the original filing:
  • What, in your opinion, is wrong with the article?
  • What do you think should be done to improve the article?
This was following an inconclusive and frankly rather absurd discussion on the Talk page here. So it was closed with no resolution.
It was suggested that we should post in Wikipedia:WikiProject Psychology to seek additional input from editors with relevant background knowledge.
Incidentally, I see that issues requiring mediation on this page go back to at least 2007. Almost as if it's objectively some kind of controversial topic, or something. Oolong (talk) 11:53, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's particularly disturbing that the lede to the article was radically changed without consensus by one of the people involved in the prior dispute, who, like everyone else involved, was specifically told to go back to the drawing board and seek consensus. It appears they took that direction to mean, "Wait a year and go back to doing exactly what you were previously doing." It also screams bad-faith editing to me to delete the Fortune citation and defend that deletion by claiming that it's against Wikipedia standards to cite an article published by a mainstream news source. I don't think I'm being unfair when I say that the "problem" with that citation wasn't that it wasn't scholarly enough; it was that it highlighted voices critical of ABA and made the case that the practice is controversial, not merely "perceived" as such by its critics.
Additionally, there is very clearly an out-of-control COI problem here. Unfortunately, since it seems there are no editors here willing to admit they work in the ABA industry, it's very difficult to prove COI on an individual basis. While it's certainly possible to develop an interest in any topic without direct personal or financial involvement, I find it difficult to believe that the pro-ABA editors here (some of whom who have prolifically originated and edited ABA-related articles for years or even decades and fill the talk pages with random pro-ABA musings) have no formal connection to the industry.
The conflict over this article also highlights what I like to call the legacy-editor rot that a lot of articles classified as controversial suffer from on Wikipedia. Basically, a handful of longtime editors will treat a scientific or medical topic with a very poor, questionable or debatable evidence base as if "the science is settled" and fiercely guard it from critics. Any changes (even neutrally worded and robustly cited ones) are insta-reverted with either no explanation or an ever-rotating list of poor excuses as to why they violate Wikipedia standards. And, of course, in order to avoid getting in trouble for edit warring or asserting article ownership, they'll tag team with like-minded editors to make such reversions. Tolerating such behavior from editors (be they longtime editors or not) compromises Wikipedia's neutrality and selectively allows certain industries to utilize the site as a promotional tool, as has been done in this case. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 19:29, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this. If I had the energy to do another request for mediation, I would do it.
This situation is frankly embarrassing. Oolong (talk) 10:45, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just came across this page out of curiosity on the history of the topic and it was extremely left-field just how incredibly biased this article appears to be — right from the start, it feels like a defence, and a discrediting of evidence. This really doesn't feel like something that belongs on Wikipedia whatsoever; even if I agreed with its stance, it shouldn't have one except presenting the facts we know. Orcaaaaa (talk) 09:15, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It appears a lot of work was put in in just the past few days to substantially improve the article (including a rebuilt controversy section). Kudos to those who took the time. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 08:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ABA is, in fact, controversial

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In a recent reversion of an edit I'd made to reflect the fact that ABA is controversial, not just 'considered controversial within the autistic rights movement, Barbarbarty asserted "It has been widely established that there are no “weasel words,” and that the evidence of controversy outside of the austism rights movement is scant. This was already decided upon last year."

This is false, and it certainly was not "decided upon last year" in the Wikipedia sense of reaching something resembling a consensus.

Here is a selection of articles on the controversy from the last few years, found through a quick Google News search, none of which back up the claim that ABA is only controversial in "the autism rights movement" - a claim for which no evidence has ever been supplied, to the best of my recollection:

For good measure, here is a paper I previously linked, from defenders of ABA, which acknowledges unambiguously that "controversy and division remain among researchers, clinicians, and within the autism community."

Oolong (talk) 12:23, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You clearly seem to be mischaracterizing what was decided upon last year. Multiple editors stated the belief that the language of the lead was sufficient. Merely because you feel that the language does not match the passion you have for this topic does not mean that the language is somehow in violation of Wikipedia guidelines. You have provided no evidence of widespread, notable controversy outside the autism rights movement, and vague references to a few parties outside the autistic community in scattered articles does not count as notable controversy in neurotypical circles in any respect whatsoever. As for your articles, two of them mention a single incident in the Netherlands, and none of them show any consistent controversy outside of circles strongly connected to either autistic individuals or autism advocacy groups. It is a strange definition to claim that the autism rights movement does not include parents of autistic individuals who advocate for their children as well. Even then, none of your articles show any notable controversy outside of groups intrinsically linked to autistic individuals.
Some of your past edits to this article have even included links to blogposts, which are definitely not authoritative sources that would belong here, and to that extent would not justify completely reframing what is put in the lead. If you want to change significant parts of the lead, you should seek consensus, which I may add you have not accomplished a single time to my knowledge. And if you specifically Googled controversy surrounding ABA and you cannot get even five articles without linking an article published nearly a decade ago, it is simply not convincing that there is notable controversy “outside the autism rights movement.” You seem to be conflating “autistic individuals” with the “autism rights movement,” when many autistic individuals do not consider themselves autism rights advocates or have strong opinions on ABA, and some neurotypical people fancy themselves members of the autism rights movement, in the same way other progressive movements had members of outgroups lend support. Nothing you have provided would make the language you have issue with categorically wrong.
You made these same points last year and, just like now, they remained wholly unconvincing to many people who contributed to those discussions. One thing that was agreed upon was that any major rewrites of the lead should achieve consensus. Once you achieve that, feel free to change it to what was agreed upon. Until then, however, relitigating these discussions will get us nowhere. Barbarbarty (talk) 16:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are mis-characterising last year's discussions yourself, which were lengthy but largely inconclusive, as well as the contents of these articles (here's another one while I'm here).
You have still produced not a single source which backs up the claim that ABA is only controversial in the "autism rights movement", or that the controversy is limited to "a perception that it emphasizes normalization instead of acceptance, and a history of, in some forms of ABA and its predecessors, the use of aversives". Indeed, I see that there has backsliding in the lede without any seeking of consensus - one thing we did agree on last year was that the lede ought to mention the weak evidence base. Oolong (talk) 14:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Every argument you have made so far were the same arguments you brought, unconvincingly, last year. If you actually believe you can achieve a consensus to change the lede, you should do so. But if you are simply going to relitigate old complaints that were already thoroughly addressed and refuted elsewhere, then nothing productive will arise from this discourse. Your points, including those on what counts as the “autism rights movement,” are those I have already addressed, quite definitively in my view. However, I am obviously not going to convince you, so I humbly suggest you take your concerns to other users who may contribute to a consensus. So far you have shown little intention of doing so. Barbarbarty (talk) 06:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I stand by the assertion that this article will only be “improved” by having more eyes on it. It is clear certain parties have very passionate, but not widely accepted, views on this article and talking in circles will not go anywhere. Barbarbarty (talk) 07:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barbarbarty, you are going against what the references state is the scope of the controversy. It is controversial - full stop. There are plenty of academic papers from the field of psychology that point this out. 1Veertje (talk) 22:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The references make it very clear that it is controversial within the autism rights movement. They absolutely do not state what you are claiming it states. Barbarbarty (talk) 01:34, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And by “consensus” I mean consensus among editors. You cannot waive something that has been agreed upon by editors of this page simply because you have a personal disagreement. Barbarbarty (talk) 01:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are the one standing there by yourself. You have not taken on the evidence provided to you in the discussion last year. The intro as it's written now is misleading as it unjustly minimizes the scope of the controversy as something outside of the field of psychology, when there are quite clearly critics from within the field itself. Consensus doesn't mean everyone agrees. There's no convincing you, but you don't own this article. 1Veertje (talk) 05:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, many other users in the discussion other than myself raised concerns about the language you are proposing, and others as well found that the articles provided were insufficient. I am not claiming to “own” any article, I am simply asking that a consensus be reached. Nothing in this talk page discussion has approached anything close to a consensus that Wikipedia would dictate is proper. I also don’t understand where you are getting that anything is “minimizing” anything. You are free to think that conversations last year convinced you, but I do not think that anyone would agree a “consensus” was reached, despite how you may personally feel about the sources.
The article discusses at length many research articles both in favor of and critiquing ABA, if you want to expand that section you are free to do so. But modifying the lead is best left to a definitive consensus, as it would avoid conversations such as these. Barbarbarty (talk) 06:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are review studies like the Cochrane review that are described in the article that point out that there is no significant benefit to ABA. A single paper where a single case study is discussed is not of equal weight. It shouldn't be controversial to call a treatment method controversial when the benefits haven't been substantiated and it quite commonly causing harm. 1Veertje (talk) 09:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It had already been widely agreed upon that any dramatic changes to the lede are to have consensus first. Arbitrarily changing more than half of the lede when there is no consensus is blatantly a violation of NPOV. Either follow Wikipedia’s guidelines or leave the article in the hands of competent editors. Barbarbarty (talk) 15:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You don't even want to remove the paragraph that is based on a single paper that was written by a single author who is part of a Department of Philosophy and Theology. The intro has changed to falsely represent what it is that makes it controversial: it's not only its because some use adversives, because positive reinforcements used to force neurotypical behavior are just as damaging. The intro is bad because in two places it needlessly unsubstantiated claims that there are more aspects that it is applied in. 1Veertje (talk) 15:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The only one who has dramatically altered the lede has been you. If you have issues with the lede, take it to this talk page and gain consensus. Simply because you have certain perspectives on what the lede should be does not give you the prerogative to dramatically alter longstanding language at your whim. Barbarbarty (talk) 15:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting that you had no problem with @ATC or @EJA94 (who I didn't even realize was the same person) altering the lede and deleting mainstream journalistic citations without consensus. Is there some reason you're holding them to a different standard? DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 20:56, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring the unusual insinuation that you are casting on me, I do not actively monitor this article, so I fail to see how I am holding anyone to a different standard. I have not edited the article in months, as evidenced by some of the users who have disagreed with me on this article in the past making extensive edits to the article since I last edited it. I don’t have any objections to raise about what they or others have added because frankly I have not paid attention to this article for a while and do not intend to do so for the immediate future. If you have issues with the current state of this article then I am not the one you should be having a dispute with at this juncture. Barbarbarty (talk) 00:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see that the mention of controversies has now been removed entirely from the lead.
This is ridiculous. @Gamma1138 is absolutely right to say that this is a disgrace for Wikipedia. Oolong (talk) 17:49, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is not true. I only removed news/media articles related to perspectives on ABA and some blogs viewpoints on it written by people high functioning on the autism spectrum as well (and I don't fully remember but I believe I might've removed some journal articles that the Wiki community agreed went against WP:POV, though that was all). And I also added valid literature reviews and the first large multi-site RCT of 164 participants which successfully reproduced the Lovaas (1987) study of 45% of kids with lower receptive language skills gaining spoken language from DTT/EIBI; the Pediatrics journal and literature reviews that it's "well established"; as well as the recent research literature reviews (i.e., Cochrane) emphasizing the need for more large RCTs and pointing out the research on the different learning styles). But, randomized control trials are not the only robust form of research (especially when it's not a drug treatment) and they're all based on over 50 years of valid data collection.

But, yes more research is evolving to incorporate large multi-site RCTs (which is good for showing how it outperforms other less intensive services on a larger wide scale). And yes I was locked out of my User:ATC account (I need to reset the password on the computer but I'm having trouble doing so) and I use User:EJA94 to log in to Wikipedia via my mobile phone. EJA94 (talk) 21:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I haven't surveyed the field lately but Wikipedia needs to be careful to contextualize any controversy. Some things are "controversial" in the wider world (vaccines, climate change, the age of the Earth) but established & settled amongst relevant experts. I don't know whether ABA is controversial these days in its scientific field(s): are there recent sources that directly address this? Bon courage (talk) 15:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    When this was last discussed, the use of the phrase “controversial among those in the autism rights movement” was seen as a possible compromise given how some Austism rights advocates have been outspoken about what theh perceive to be the harms of this practice. But whether it is “generally” controversial is a bigger stretch, given how most articles related to ABA controversies only focus on autism rights advocates, with little or no detail on critics outside those communities. Barbarbarty (talk) 15:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    They focus on the controversy in its application as a treatment for autistic kids because that's practically the only group being subjected to this kind of treatment. It is controversial because of its high potency to cause harm and review studies have only shown a marginal benefit. Kids grow up, so improvements can be in spite of treatment. Citing a single paper by a philosopher who is talking about their own kid as if they're an authority on a therapy they're not even trained in themselves for an entire paragraph that claims to reflect the benefits is a disgrace. 1Veertje (talk) 15:51, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is all well and good, but again, this sounds more like a personal view rather than any dispute as to the content of the article. The articles in the “benefit” section can stay out pending any consensus on whether to include them, but please seek consensus, either through an RfC or other means, before dramatically altering the lede. Unilateral actions such as yours will only make a contentious article such as this even more toxic to editors. Barbarbarty (talk) 15:55, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    you should read the paragraph "Views of the autistic community" again. Does it emphasize its historic use of electroshock or, like I phrased it, its potential for harm, which is elsewhere in the article substantiated by research showing its potency to cause PTSD symptoms? 1Veertje (talk) 16:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The article does mention the electric shock treatments performed by the JRT, as well as having a 2023 survey which showed a majority of autistic adults have “painful lived experiences” from treatments described as ABA. I do not think the article neglects to mention or downplay those aspects. Barbarbarty (talk) 16:07, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The lead downplays why it is being opposed, making the harms caused by ABA out to be historic and the basis of a misunderstanding of current practices. It's not just negative reinforcement that is the cause of distress, it's the current practice of manipulating behavior with operant conditioning to extinguish signs of distress. 1Veertje (talk) 16:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I dispute that characterization. The lede discusses the controversies ABA has in the present tense, as well as it being perceived as causing harm. If you have other sources you would like to present, please bring them here and there can be an open discussion on how to frame the lede. Barbarbarty (talk) 16:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, it doesn’t “emphasize” electric shocks in the lede, it mentions “aversives” and in mentioning that gives the example
    of electric shocks. The article goes into detail on how the use of aversives such as those practiced by the JRC are a point of consistent criticism against practitioners of ABA. I think it is fair to state that the article presents this as a source of controversy, and I have no issue with it being described as such. Barbarbarty (talk) 16:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it's not fair to make criticism of ABA out to be some sort of misunderstanding of adversives being a thing that only a historical aspect of ABA. For one: they're not. Rewarding a kid by giving it back its favorite toy is no different than taking it away until they comply. If you would read the position statement of EUCAP it also emphasizes that they published that statement last April because its current and demonstrated extent potential to cause harm. I therefore propose changing the closing paragraph of the opening to "there is substantial opposition from autism rights movement to its application due to a perception that it emphasizes normalization instead of acceptance and its potential for causing harm" 1Veertje (talk) 10:32, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Barbarbarty Are you going to change the intro or shall I? The way it's written now is quite a dishonest representation of why ABA is being opposed. 1Veertje (talk) 14:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I fail to see how it is dishonest in the slightest, but again my position is that if you are seeking to dramatically change the lede you should seek consensus on here first before you make changes. That has been my consistent position throughout all of this. I don’t understand why you are asking me when it has already been established that individual editors do not “own” pages. So far, you have failed to provide a single convincing argument, in my view, that the lede is inaccurate, but if you wish to change the lede then seek consensus first. Barbarbarty (talk) 14:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Harm caused by ABA
    As I've stated before: the lead now makes the objections from the autism rights movement against ABA because of its use of adversives, and makes those out to be something only some forms of ABA use and specifically electro shock a thing of the past. It's not accurate: it's opposed because of its potential to cause harm. The way it causes harm goes much deeper than just those times when adversives were used. ABA has also been used to suppress self soothing behavior such as stimming and to enforce neurotypical levels of eye contact. The use of positive reinforcement can also be harmful in that it can be detrimental to intrinsic motivation. See How much compliance is too much compliance: Is long-term ABA therapy abuse? (Q66742693) 1Veertje (talk) 09:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, I think you are misreading the lede, because the lede very blatantly states that there is controversy because it enforces normalization instead of acceptance. You seem to be contriving an interpretation of the lede in order to find fault with it. But regardless, my position is still that you should gain the consensus of other editors before radically altering the lede. If you have actual issues with the lede, you should seek out the opinions of other editors instead of trying to convince me when I’ve already told you I have no ultimate control over the direction of the article. Barbarbarty (talk) 15:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for trying, 1Veertje. I see that the lead, at least, has now pretty much been reverted wholesale to the state it was in before I started trying to make it accurate.
    It's glaringly unencyclopaedic as it stands, and we obviously need another dispute resolution here, since my previous attempt stalled and the same people are still digging their heels in with the same spurious arguments. I just don't have the energy to pursue this right now, but will support anyone who does. Oolong (talk) 22:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This source:
    • Callahan MM, Fodstad JC, Moore JW (2023). "History of Applied Behavior Analysis". In Matson JL (ed.). Handbook of Applied Behavior Analysis. Autism and Child Psychopathology Series. Springer. doi:10.1007/978-3-031-19964-6_1.
    says that the idea this is an autism-specific treatment is a misconception. It is also useful for the question at hand: maybe "controversial" is just too reductive a word. While Lovaas' work is described as controverial, the field as a whole is characterized as one which is subject to criticism for overreaching claims. Bon courage (talk) 15:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "there is substantial opposition from autism rights movement to its application due to a perception that it emphasizes normalization instead of acceptance and its potential for causing harm." 1Veertje (talk) 16:17, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have appealed to to WikiProject Psychology for help here, for what it's worth. Oolong (talk) 14:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Bon courage, what do you think about trying something like "rejected by the autism rights movement"? I suspect we could find sources that support this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:47, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    From what I've seen of the sourcing that seems about right, yes. Bon courage (talk) 00:49, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If nobody objects during the next day, then let's make that change. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There being no objections, I have re-written that paragraph. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ATC @EJA94 Please don't misrepresent what you did. You deleted a citation from a mainstream journalistic source because it quoted critics of ABA and bafflingly tried to claim that citing mainstream journalistic sources violated Wikipedia policy. You even admitted in your above reply that you felt it was appropriate to delete it because the article discussed "perspectives on ABA." Do you honestly believe that societal views of ABA (including those from the Autistic community) are irrelevant to this article or are only citable if they appear in a published scientific paper? That isn't how Wikipedia functions, and, as someone who has apparently been editing for nearly two decades, you should know that.
Additionally, the fact that you used the term "high-functioning" in the above comment to describe other Autistic individuals is truly abhorrent. "High-functioning" is a reductive, scientifically meaningless signifier typically slapped on Autistics who are high-masking. It has never been an officially adopted scientific or medical term (probably because it grossly misrepresents how the autistic spectrum is structured) and is derogatory in its implication that autistic traits are impediments to being a "fully functioning" human being. Further, you seem to use the label as partial justification for deleting a citation, which comes off to me as parroting the ABA industry talking point that those capable of voicing criticism of ABA are not disabled enough to have a (negative) opinion on it. There are Autistic (and allistic) critics of ABA from all walks of life, including Autistic people who were traumatized by it. All they (traumatized survivors) get from your industry is gaslighting about how the ABA of 5 minutes ago bears no resemblance to ABA now or how whomever performed ABA on them must have been incompetent.
As for RCTs, I have never seen a single one related to ABA that used a non-ABA control group. The very few RCTs (we're talking single digits) that have been performed by the ABA industry since its formation in the 1960s have all boiled down to comparing one group that received a certain type or duration of ABA to another group that received another type or duration. That proves absolutely nothing, because you aren't removing ABA as a variable; you're merely comparing one form or duration of ABA to another. Further, the entire "evidence base" of ABA is questionable because efficacy is usually measured by how well someone masks, performs in a traditional academic setting, etc. after undergoing ABA. ABA practitioners can't be bothered to study or even acknowledge inconvenient things like the longterm impact of ABA on mental health, because supporting Autistic people is not and has never been the goal of ABA. It has always been to traumatize Autistic people into submission, compliance and conformity and always will be. You can slap a fresh coat of paint on ABA as many times as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the wood underneath is rotten. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 06:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DoItFastDoItUrgent, some uses of "mainstream journalistic sources" violate WP:MEDRS. To give only one example, mainstream journalistic sources may not be used to say whether ABA is effective.
Since you are interested in RCTs, here are a few that compare ABA to a non-ABA control group:
The WP:MEDRS rules discourage (but do not completely ban) citing RCTs in articles. Instead, editors are encouraged to cite review articles, meta analyses, and graduate-level textbooks for most WP:Biomedical information. If you see RCTs cited in an article, and you believe that use is inappropriate for the claim being made, then please consider tagging it with {{primary source inline}}. Most information in most articles should not come directly from RCTs. Instead, they should come from sources that combine information from multiple RCTs.
I see that you disagree with the Outcome measures that are often used. That is a matter of Point of view (philosophy) or human values. For example, one family might think it is important for everyone to learn how to cook. That family is not wrong or bad as a result of their choice, even if you would make a different choice. Similarly, one researcher might think that the short-term behavior is the most important thing to measure. That researcher is not wrong or bad as a result of their choice, even if you would make a different choice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I liked your response, @WhatamIdoing. However, that study compared PRT (Naturalistic ABA) to Structured ABA (DTT), so I wanted to clarify that they're comparing two different forms of the same science (which are both forms of ABA). Also, @DoItFastDoItUrgent, as of present, ABA doesn't always target decreasing stereotypic body movements ("stims") unless it's self-injurious or a time when it's distracting someone else from doing their work or watching a film/show (I think the autism subfield is starting to head towards that direction). So, it wouldn't belong in the lead, but if there are reliable studies, we could probably include it in a subsection of a "Neurodiversity perspectives in the treatment of autism" section, as long as the context and sources don't go against WP:POV. What do you think, @WhatamIdoing? EJA94 (talk) 20:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In principle, we should usually (but not always) avoid having separate sections for criticism. It's usually best to say something integrated like this:
==Treatment goals==
"As of 2022, the most common treatment goals are to get school-age children to use the toilet, to keep their hands to themselves, and to use their voices. These goals are criticized by the Infantilizing Parents Association, who think that self-toileting is overrated, and by the Self-Advocates Club, which says that being non-speaking is perfectly fine."
instead of separating like this:
==Treatment goals==
"As of 2022, the most common treatment goals are to get school-age children to use the toilet, to keep their hands to themselves, and to use their voices."
== Criticisms==
"The Infantilizing Parents Association has criticized the common treatment goal of self-toileting, which they think is overrated."
"The Self-Advocates Club has criticized the common treatment goal of speaking because they think that being non-speaking is perfectly fine."
This model would likely work better for specifics (e.g., "Rewarding compliance and punishing non-compliance can result in excessive deference to authorities") than for vague complaints of the sort you can find on social media (e.g., "It's basically just torture"), but which don't give enough information to differentiate the complaint about ABA from complaints about, say, chemotherapy, putting hens in battery cages, sitting next to a crying baby on an airplane, declawing cats, cooking lobsters, etc. Consequently, people who believe the article needs to include their favorite smear word will often find the fact-centered model unsatisfactory. For example, if an editor believes that the word traumatizing really needs to be in the article, then reporting the facts about things that might be experienced as traumatizing (e.g., "If the goal includes learning to endure the sound of thunder, fireworks, or other frightening noises, the children may be repeatedly subjected to loud noises") is not going to feel sufficient to you. "It is traumatizing" is judgemental. "It might involve loud noises" is factual. For an editor who wants the Wikipedia article to pass judgment, then this model may not meet their personal goals. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:22, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@WhatamIdoing You accuse others of injecting bias into the article via its language or structure, while deliberately disrespecting and invalidating critics of ABA by contemptuously referring to them as "the Infantilizing Parents Association" and "the Self-Advocates Club" in your above hypotheticals. You also conflate respect for forms of communication that don't utilize traditional speech (e.g., AAC-assisted speech or sign language) with a general opposition to teaching Autistic people with speech delays to communicate and conflate opposition to ABA with a general opposition to toilet-training Autistic people who are able to learn (but haven't been able to learn through traditional methods). Show me one real-world example of an Autistic person or a parent/caregiver saying, "I oppose toilet-training Autistic people," or, "I oppose teaching Autistic people with speech delays how to communicate." If you think those are hidden messages contained in the words of the average ABA critic, then, again, examine your own bias before lecturing others on theirs.
Regarding your unease with the word "torture," two different U.N. special rapporteurs on torture have explicitly called the type of ABA practiced at the Judge Rotenberg Center torture, so perhaps you should be less dismissive of critics (including survivors) who use the same language. (Oh, yes, I know, we're supposed to ignore the JRC as an aberration and a bunch of bad apples, despite the fact that the organization that licenses them and every other ABA practitioner in the United States has refused to pull their credentials and the largest ABA professional association in the world officially defended them until 2022.) Should a Wikipedia article break neutrality by saying, "ABA is a type of torture?" From a purely encyclopedic standpoint (not a moral one), no. But, neither should an article go out of its way to omit well cited descriptions of ABA as torture by survivors, experts or other interested parties. The same goes for your unease around the word "traumatizing."
You're also being dismissive when you invalidate any criticism of ABA that appears on social media (I'm speaking generally, not in relation to Wikipedia policy surrounding citations). What do you recommend the average ABA survivor who feels traumatized by their experience (or an ally of theirs) does to speak out? Publish a book? Go on "The Today Show" to tell their story? Conduct a scientific study? Most survivors don't have the connections or resources to do any of those things and are further hampered by the fact that society at large infantilizes and ignores the opinions of Autistic people in favor of the opinions of "the experts" (like ABA practitioners, who declare themselves experts on Autistic people, despite having no formal training in autistic neurology). Thus, even when they do express their criticism in a way that you have arbitrarily deemed more legitimate than posting on social media (including in any of the ways I mentioned above), they're still ignored.
As for your prior comment specifically directed to me, I make no apologies for judging ABA proponents and practitioners (including researchers with a pro-ABA bias) as harshly as I do. Again, you are reducing opposition to ABA to opposition to any kind of therapy, accommodation or support that would enable an individual to achieve their greatest possible degree of autonomy. I am not opposed to legitimate therapies, accommodations or supports (I think those things should be free and easily accessible); I am opposed to ableist, pseudoscientific grifts, like ABA (which actually strips individuals of their autonomy). I also won't excuse arbitrary goals of ABA practitioners (like suppressing stims, forcing eye contact or bottling in discomfort for the convenience of others) as merely an academic or cultural disagreement with no correct POV. (And, no, I don't buy the "kinder, gentler, we-don't-do-that-anymore" line of BS that most ABA practitioners are trained from day one to spout.)
Regarding the papers you cited, congratulations, you found three examples of RCTs using non-ABA control groups conducted in the last 60 years (as @ATC/@EJA94 pointed out, the fourth example was comparing one form of ABA to another). That doesn't validate ABA as a science or excuse its deeply unethical means of practice (both past and present) or the systemic bias present within ABA research (which is outlined within this Wikipedia article). Just as an example from two of the RCTs you cited involving eating disorders, do you think it's ethical to force a child's mouth open by shoving a spoon in there and twisting to confirm they swallowed their food? Do you have any idea how violating and dehumanizing that is, or are you going to fall back on your cultural relativism argument again? Further, there's a difference between helping a child overcome a severely restrictive eating disorder in a healthy way and just conditioning them to eat whatever they're given (including foods that cause severe sensory discomfort) through praise or other rewards. You may not be aware of this, but Autistic people can't just "get used to" sensory discomfort. A distressing sensory stimulus may be just as distressing the thousandth time someone is exposed to it as the first. A neuroaffirming approach would be to provide an individual with accommodations to block out or lessen their exposure to that stimulus. The ABA approach is to condition the individual to merely suppress any visible signs of discomfort through punishments and/or rewards. You don't see the stark and disturbing difference between those two approaches? You don't see the problem with declaring ABA more effective at curing an eating disorder if the "cure" is just coercing someone into suppressing their discomfort for life? Will the "cure" even last decades after they don't have an ABA practitioner or parent standing over them, dangling a tangible or intangible reward (or threatening a punishment)? Who knows, because ABA researchers generally aren't interested in conducting longterm studies that stretch into adulthood. They're not interested in conducting any studies likely to reflect badly on their industry or methods.
For the record, I strongly disagree with your proposal to restructure the article and recommend you seek broad consensus from the rest of the editors here (e.g., more than just the agreement of @ATC/@EJA94) before making any fundamental alterations to that structure, particularly considering the substantial editing conflicts that have occurred here over the past year or two. It would be nice to go more than a few weeks without having an edit war break out here. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 21:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DoItFastDoItUrgent, For one, no school (including JRC) belongs in the ABA article (as it's unrelated). Two, most behavior analysts today are against electric shocks that the JRC continued to employ for a number of years (even if it hasn't been fully abolished at that one particular school). Third, Pediatric Feeding Therapy is non-coercive and is an evidence based practice used by speech pathologists and behavior analysts alike. Lastly, ABA and positive behavior support emphasizes only using differential reinforcement contingencies to replace or teach new skills, not punishment or aversives, and all forms and subfields of ABA are empirically validated, beyond just autism. EJA94 (talk) 23:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@EJA94 You didn't even know the JRC was still using electric shocks until I told you they were on this talk page, so forgive me if I don't trust that you have your finger on the pulse of what most ABA practitioners currently do or don't believe (especially in regard to the JRC). If you're referring to the ABAI vote, that proves nothing about majority attitudes toward the JRC, because not every (or even most) ABA practitioners are dues-paying members of ABAI. Of course, if you have some measure of relevant expertise (e.g., you're a working RBT or BCBA), feel free to volunteer that (and also to review Wikipedia's official policy surrounding COI). DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 01:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having an ordinary job related to the topic of discussion is not a COI, just like being an ordinary patient/client related to the topic of discussion is not a COI. We do not ban surgeons from editing articles about surgery or psychologists from editing articles about therapy techniques, so we would not ban ABA practitioners from editing articles about ABA. We also do not ban surgery patients or therapy clients or ABA subjects from editing the related articles.
Wikipedia:Conflicts of interest (medicine) explains the usual application of generic COI rules to healthcare practitioners and also to patient advocates. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dolt, I hope you can imagine me saying this gently: Calling someone a self-advocate is not an insult.
I think you have significantly misunderstood the point of the structural example. It is bad to put the proponents' claims in a separate section than the critics' claims about the same subject.
Good approach: "Proponent says ____, but critic says ____" in the same paragraph.
Bad approach: "Proponent says ____" all by itself, unless you scroll almost to the end of the article, in whicih case you will see "Critic says ____".
If you want people to read the criticism of each point, then that criticism should be delivered in the same place as the proponents' parts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Psychology Capstone

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 May 2024 and 12 August 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sarahmoran683 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Kacart98, Zclayt, Dennyslimon10, Lmn23, Sydrgalloway.

— Assignment last updated by Rahneli (talk) 23:52, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV issues

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This article seems to be quite biased in favor of ABA. I've tried to do a bit with the introduction but this article frankly needs re-written. LinuxNCats (talk) 02:37, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The solutions to NPOV issues is usually to increase sourcing quality by leaning on the WP:BESTSOURCES. I notice, for example there is a recent high-quality systematic review that could useful: PMID:39066520. I haven't read it yet. Bon courage (talk) 15:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The way the article is structured now first give us an overview of what ABA therapists set up in 1968 and then the criticism of it. This is so favorable to them that they get a bullet point of being "Effective" being an intrinsic part of the thing they thought up. They even got to add "Doable", "Empowering" and "Optimistic" with the a paper that shows their intent to do so in 2005. What they actually mean by that is that they're very preoccupied with recording meassurements. These meassurements accurately record that a 6 year old grows older. Actual clinical reviews have shown very little effectiveness and a very real chance that it causes trauma. The language ABA therapists use is also uncritically copied. What it means when they talk about "attention seeking" and "escape behavior" is that they've got a distressed child that they've thaught that they'll be punished when they show that distress. Increasing sourcing quality is really not the only problem in this article. 1Veertje (talk) 15:13, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is not really with citation quality. We have had repeated reversions of accurate and well-cited points by editors on questionable grounds. There appears to be some dispute over what counts as a reliable source for reporting on things like community views.
That said, there certainly remain many claims throughout the article which are not adequately supported by quality citations, overwhelmingly on the pro-ABA side. Oolong (talk) 10:49, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About a third of the sources fail WP:MEDDATE. The article does have a problem with source quality. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Amazingly, it's now even worse than it was when you wrote this! Oolong (talk) 17:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

History of electroshock

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I'd like to add an in-depth history of the use of electroshock in ABA. I'm planning to add this to the controversy section and cover the first uses by Lovaas, its use in gay conversion therapy, the Judge Rotenberg Center, ABAI voting that the use of electoshocks is unacceptable in all circumstances in 2022, and the FDA's recently proposed ban. Is there anything else that this section should cover that I didn't already list? Editor6681067 (talk) 19:31, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like you have a good handle on things. If you weren't already intending on doing so, you might include references to failed legislative attempts to ban or defund the shocks, including in Massachusetts and New York. Plenty of mainstream journalistic sources (as well as official statements from non-profits, like ASAN and AWN) you could cite regarding those pieces of legislation. Mentioning the U.N. condemnations of the shocks as torture is also a must.
I'm interested to see how your section on the ABAI vote turns out. While some may point to it as proof that the industry is reforming itself (which is not possible, considering its rotten foundation), I see it as nothing more than an Autistic token covering for the industry (the leader of the campaign to force ABAI to issue the condemnation is an Autistic ABA practitioner). Now, whenever the JRC is brought up, ABA practitioners can point to the new ABAI policy position and go, "See, we're listening. It took us awhile, but now even we think what our colleagues at the JRC do is bad." Meanwhile, I don't see any ABA practitioners (Autistic or otherwise) calling out the BACB for not stripping JRC employees of their ABA credentials. Funny that. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 22:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Editor6681067, Electroshock is a redirect to Electroconvulsive therapy, which does not seem to be related. I wonder if we need a separate article on the use of electroshock as an aversive. It could include part of Electrical injury#Torture as well. A separate article would be a good place for a broad history that covers non-ABA uses of electrical shock devices.
For this article, gay conversion therapy is off topic, so I would not recommend including that here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, electroconvulsive therapy is definitely unrelated. I think you're right that having a separate article might be a good idea in order to keep the main ABA article from getting too bogged down and allow a more thorough history of the practice than what would be appropriate on this article.
While gay conversion therapy is not evidenced based and shouldn't be considered ABA by modern standards, the historical claims that ABA practitioners conducted research to "correct" homosexual behavior is simply undeniable. Even Lovaas published a study on attempting to convert a transgender girl to her assigned at birth sex which was published in the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1901/jaba.1974.7-173 Editor6681067 (talk) 08:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Editor6681067 It's also worth pointing out that the Lovaas/Rekers study you linked above is the one that JABA issued an "expression of concern" for in 2020, claiming that it wouldn't have been ethical to conduct by 2020 research standards, but was ethical by the research standards of its time. Hard for ABA proponents to argue that the industry has changed when the industry won't even admit that it was always unethical to try to physically and psychologically torture a queer child into not being queer. Well, maybe in another 30 years or so, they'll finally retract the article if they need another PR win. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 21:56, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You'll probably want to include something about the many times ABAI - apparently one of the main professional bodies for the ABA industry? - invited representatives from the JRC to their annual conferences to defend their use of electric torture machines on disabled children.
Obviously you won't want to phrase it like that, you need to find a neutral-sounding way of getting across the same thing.
Using only information from ABAI's own site, I collated a list of these here.
ASAN's response to the ABAI finally voting to condemn this form of torture is good. I've been told not to cite ASAN here before, but as far as I can tell they pass muster as a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. Oolong (talk) 18:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like you're thinking about this in terms of Deplatforming: If I disagree with them, they should not be allowed to talk to others, and others should not be informed about what they are doing. People can only learn about what I agree with. Academic groups should definitely not charge evil people money to talk about their stuff, since there's no difference between taking their money and paying them (except, you know, for who is doing the paying and who is getting the money). Only people and products I approve of should be allowed to pay their own money for advertisements. With this first model, we might say "Look at those evil people, who invited the JRC to promote their approach to experts! The JRC should have been shunned and forced to operate without any knowledgeable people hearing about what they were doing".
The traditional academic model is quite the opposite: If someone is doing something different, they should come and explain it to you, so you have an opportunity to decide whether you agree or disagree, and if you disagree, so you have an opportunity to share your disagreement directly. If you want to pay some money to support the conference, that's convenient for me, but it won't change the fact that I disagree with you. In this second model, we might say "It's a good thing the experts were watching the JRC and asking them uncomfortable questions. It might have taken even longer to get the necessary legal changes if they weren't encouraged to disclose it all".
Either way, that information belongs in Association for Behavior Analysis International, which is not this article.
On your question about ASAN: Like all self-published statements, ASAN's own press releases are primary, self-published, and reliable for very narrow statements mostly in the form of "ASAN said ____", without any statement, or even any implication, that what ASAN said is either true or important. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Two different U.N. special rapporteurs on torture labeled what the JRC does as torture many years before their last appearance at an ABAI conference. You are literally saying trade associations should invite people who have been credibly accused of torture for decades to hang out in front of a display table for a few hours handing out pamphlets about how great torture is, make a presentation in an extremely friendly forum about how great torture is and then go get drunk with the other attendees at the hotel bar. The fact that you are even making this argument shows just how prevalent the view of Autistic people as subhuman is. In no other context would you or anyone else be making an argument that torturers deserve a platform (except perhaps in a court of law, where they would be entitled to defend themselves).
When ABAI officially condemned the JRC in 2022, it wasn't because they had, up until that point, not been engaging in torture or that their torture had not been well documented by survivors, government investigators and the media. It's because a token Autistic ABA practitioner who brands himself "the Bearded Behaviorist" convinced a bunch of new members to join ABAI solely to vote to condemn the JRC (something that had no impact on the JRC performing torture, but has given ABA practitioners a "we-condemned-them-back-in-2022" talking point to refute industry criticism). This was not a case where the jury was still out and the ABAI needed to gather more information before concluding that the JRC was engaging in torture. It was also not a case where ABAI had any relevant investigatory, advisory, monitoring or credentialing roles, as they are nothing more than a private trade association that the JRC is not legally beholden to. You are really straining credulity (in a particularly grotesque way) to claim ABAI hosted the JRC for the good of those being tortured by them (as recently as this decade). You are also giving the ABAI and its members too much credit if you think a single person stood up at even one of the JRC's ABAI presentations and asked them anything other than softball questions. Remember, before the Bearded Behaviorist's little coup, the majority of ABAI members (including the ABAI board of directors) unconditionally and unapologetically supported the JRC.
It's also not surprising to me that you don't consider ASAN a generally citable source, as it's both critical of ABA and exclusively run by Autistic individuals. Again, it seems there's no measure of arbitrary legitimacy that an Autistic person (especially an Autistic person critical of ABA) can reach to be considered a reliable or citable source by those with a pro-ABA bias. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 00:30, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying that it is an academic tradition to directly confront people you disagree with. We don't have a List of academic presentations that ended in fisticuffs, but we could probably source one.
You sound like you are repeating talking points from an advocacy group. I noticed the non-neutral language you used: The ABAI "invited" them. They "hosted" them. They were "extremely friendly". They "unconditionally and unapologetically supported the JRC". The JRC doesn't "deserve a platform". And in all of these years, not one person ever asked them anything except "softball questions". I wonder how you know that. Were you there? Or are you just repeating exaggerations that you've read on an advocacy group's website? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:41, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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