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Scope of the Project, Notability Rules (clarification), and Syntax for the Watchlist are linked here: Watchlist Talk Page. A discussion on the types of chapter status is here: F&S Project talk page, Archive #7.

Cleanup project (updated)

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The main list of infobox issues can be found at Category:Fraternity articles with infobox fraternity issues.

  1. Missing image size - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing image size (79)
  2. missing |member badge= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing member badge (882)
  3. missing |chapters= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing chapters (60)
  4. missing |members= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing members (825)
  5. missing |website= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing website (147)
  6. Missing country
  7. Primary sources - tracked at petscan
  8. Has bibliography but lacks inline citations - tracked at petscan
  9. Needs color boxes (Helpful link, has colors, flags, and addresses of Baltic, Scandinavian, German, and Polish fraternities)

Rublamb (talk) 20:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Portal Diskussion:Studentenverbindung

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I've reached out to the Discussion group over on dewiki at de:Portal_Diskussion:Studentenverbindung#Request_knowledge_from_english_language_wiki_on_Studentenverbindung and got some really great answers to things. And as I said before, I'm thinking of creating an Template:Infobox_Studentenverbindung equivalent to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorlage:Infobox_Studentenverbindung if I can understand all the fields.Naraht (talk) 19:42, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After working on several Studentenverbindung articles recently, I found that what looked like an infobox for many was actually a code-generated table. All are now changed to "Infobox fraternity". I don't think we need a new infobox, but suggest adding "Zirkel" as a field option to Infobox fraternity. (Color for Couleur is a reasonable translation). Everything else works as is. We just need to create some instructions or at least answer these questions"
  1. Are we going to use color boxes or ribbon approximations?
  2. How do we determine the correct terms for emphasis; i.e. linking to the German word article for dueling, non-dueling, no couleurs, Catholic, and Christian? Or do we use the English translation?
  3. Do we use "Infobox fraternity" for individual fraternities and their umbrella groups? If so, what is the correct type for the umbrella group? The groups that used to have "Infobox organization" were called "trade association" under type. Umbrella group seems pretty informal.
Also, most articles use the foreign language version of the fraternity's name, rather than the English translation. Do we want a translation at the top in parenthesis or should we have a field/free field for the English translation? I struggle with which is correct here. Just consider, why are we using the German word Studentenverbindung instead of its translation? Is there a precedent in other parts of Wikipedia for continuing to use the foreign word instead of its translation? Rublamb (talk) 18:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article cleanup needed

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One of our main articles, Fraternities and sororities, has had a factual accuracy tag since March 2023. I just added a few sources, which is part of the issue. Since others have worked on this article in the past, you may have a better idea of what content is questionable. Rublamb (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is also a discussion on the articles Talkpage about moving this to Collegiate fraternities and sororities. Rublamb (talk) 22:27, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We just discovered History of North American fraternities and sororities which was off the radar because it lacked WikiProject tags. The two articles relate in many ways. I could see a merger of the two and/or splitting the history and cultural content into two articles. It would be a big project since these are both long articles. Rublamb (talk) 23:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Awareness builder

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Editors with ties to some of the GLOs -- some of the bigger social fraternities and APO are examples -- brand their User pages with small banner tags noting membership. It might be a helpful long-term objective for the Project team to create these, one for each society in their colors, that they might be picked up by editors (typically, new editors) to drive Project participation. We could pin them to each Talk page, with instructions for use. Jax MN (talk) 17:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Userboxes/Collegiate sororities and fraternities Rublamb (talk) 02:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have updated the userbox template list on our Watch List so that it is easier to see which groups already have a userbox template. (I still need to check our list against the one linked above). However, some existing userbox templates are basically unreadable because of a lack of contrasting colors.
If we are going to add these to all articles relating to the GLO, my suggestion is the horizontal template that nests under the WikiProjects, rather than the verticle box that floats to the right of the page. I don't recommend putting the userbox code in a TalkPage comment as that could be auto-archived. Does anyone need to see examples of the two formats before commenting? I am willing to work on inserting the templates if there is agreement on style. Does anyone volunteer for template cleanup duty? Rublamb (talk) 18:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Naming articles for Latvian, Estonia, Russian, and German groups

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We need to get a handle on naming conventions for student associations and corporations articles. We seem to have a mix of full foreign-language names, the Korp! nickname, the nickname without Korp!, and English translations. When working in this area yesterday, I found little consistency with Latvian and Estonian group names--the English Wikipedia article's names typically do not match the German Wikipedia name, sometimes using the formal name when that is not in use in German Wikipedia or the group's website. Also, the English translations may or may not be correct. This can eventually be fixed with redirects, but I am struggling to figure out the best common name format so we can be consistent across all articles. Refer to List of student corporations in Latvia and List of fraternities and sororities in Estonia for examples of the article name variations. (Note that I have linked to German Wikipedia if I could not find an article in the English version). Rublamb (talk) 22:13, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As these are (or ought to be) treated more comprehensively in their native language Wikis, I think we should include a link to the original language article and use a consistent naming structure, probably the 'full' name, not nickname. As long as these are treated consistently within the English language Wikipedia, I would be amenable to whatever of the options you list that you determine works best. Jax MN (talk) 22:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In most cases, using the full name is like naming an article "The Grand International Sisterhood of Moo Moo Moo, Incorporated", rather than "Moo Moo Moo" or "GIS Moo Moo Moo". (The later being what many of these corporations use on their websites, with "GIS" being common identifier for groups of that type). Since we already follow Wikipedia's naming guidelines and use the common name with US GLOs, I am pretty sure the article's title should be a shortened. It would be helpful to have a member of one of these groups or someone who speaks the language help us naviage what are and are not essential parts of the full name. For example, using "Korp!" may be akin to saying "Chi Psi Fratenity", with Korp translating as the unnecessary word "fraternity". Rublamb (talk) 23:25, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honor Society Museum

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www.honormuseum.org might be useful. With https://honorsocietymuseum.org/all/ being a list of those groups with a specific page about them. Right now we have *one* article that uses information from there: Rho Kappa.Naraht (talk) 00:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At one point, someone replaced some of the dead links to ACHS member pages with links to this website. However, I don't know if it is connected to ACHS. Rublamb (talk) 02:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I *really* don't think it is, diving into it leads to https://www.honorsociety.org/ , which I get really bad vibes from. "Honor society for all" which looking at the site means less than nothing. I was always looking into an honor society because it gave a good dental plan.Naraht (talk) 03:26, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had the same read on honorsociety.org. It seems like a for-profit website, possibly getting paid for click-throughs to honor society websites. It would be helpful if the "museum" were a reliable source because many of the societies formed in the late 20th and 21st centuries need more sources since they were never in Bairds. Is this a reliable source? Where do we think their content is coming from? Rublamb (talk) 16:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Found this disclaimer: "HonorSociety.org Inc., Honor Society Foundation Inc., and its president Michael Moradian were sued in federal court by PTK on April 20, 2022 for False Designation of Origin, Trade Dress Infringement, and Unfair Competition. Honor Society and Michael Moradian countersued and are presently defendants/counter-plaintiffs in this litigation. Litigation is still ongoing and all claims made regarding this case are just allegations against the parties". Rublamb (talk) 23:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Updated list: notability or no ref tags

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Delete: I added two sources but can't find significant coverage. Content has sources now, but mostly from its website. It is now included in both the African American and LGBTQ list articles, with a source. Rublamb (talk) 07:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Not even sig coverage by the university
Delete: can't find secondary sources Rublamb (talk) 20:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with List of Greek umbrella organizations
Delete: no off-campus sources, founded in 2007 so no history to look for
Move: the law firm does not meet notability for an organization. However, there are enough sources for an article on the Anti-Hazing Hotline. So, one option is to move the article and subject, with a redirect for the law firm which manages the hotline. Or, we can go with a new article on the hotline. The newsletter, the original focus of the article, is not significant.
Delete: I found some articles in the campus newspaper but no significant coverage elsewhere. It is now included in List of social sororities and women's fraternities Rublamb (talk) 23:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete?: I added some sources and expanded/updated the chapter list. However, all of the sources I found are clearly from press releases. There is almost zero presence of this group on its host colleges' websites; I even found one that lists this as a non-recognized organization. A Reddit discussion notes that the group has used a copy of UNC's letterhead without any affiliation. Now that I have expanded the chapter list, I hate to say this--but it does not really meet notability. I suggest including it in the Honor society article but going for an AfD unless one good source shows up. Rublamb (talk) 01:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into College of William & Mary secret societies; I've searched the state library, the VA newspaper database, and the usual places and can't find off-campus sources. The logo and some info seem to be pulled from its Facebook page. Rublamb (talk) 22:13, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Harvard College social clubs

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IMO, all groups mentioned in the Harvard College social clubs List below should be in a category under cat:Harvard and cat:Student_societies_in_the_United_States . comments? Naraht (talk) 16:37, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense to me. We need some consistency in how we handle collegaite senior societies and final clubs. Rublamb (talk) 19:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For now at Harvard one cat, but I could see a cat for only the senior societies later (don't quite understand the difference between the senior societies and final clubs.
Done. Naraht (talk) 06:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think they are the same thing. Final club seems to be used at Yale. Rublamb (talk) 15:21, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know in some places that there is a difference between groups that are selected into multi-year groups vs. those where one class of seniors selects the next group of incoming seniors and as such the group on campus only consists of seniors. Is that the difference at Harvard?Naraht (talk) 16:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects

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I have not found all of the redirects that lack a WP tag, but I have found many redirects that should be deleted. These are spelling or capitalization mistakes, unhelpful article title phrasing, etc. I know this is not a priority project but I am sharing here so that we will not forget the need. Rublamb (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of potential redirects for Discussion

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So far *just* those containing Alpha, from either a title search with / alpha/ or looking at the section starting with Alpha in Category:Redirects from miscapitalisations (and the one to *possibly* keep due to being a short name)

Template:Association of Education Sororities

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I created this template on a whim, and now I'm wondering if it makes sense. (links to AES and to the 7 sororities that were in it). Naraht (talk) 19:37, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since we have an article on AES, it makes sense. Rublamb (talk) 04:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use images

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There has been some push back on photos of badges that were added as fair use images. I don't know how far this will go but I have added WP Fraternities and Sororities to the talkpage of all crests, coat of arms, flags, badges, and pledge badge images that I have found to ensure that we will know of proposed deletions. Moving forward, please create the talkpage with WP for fair use images so that we will be alerted of proposed deletions. Rublamb (talk) 04:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two conventions to make a change...

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From researching for the discussion on Talk:Phi Delta Theta about the Aryan clause, it appears that at least some of Phi Delta Theta's constitution requires that a change be passed at one convention and then confirmed at the next in order for it to take effect. Does anyone know if that is rare enough that it should be mentioned in the article, or is it something pretty common? Naraht (talk) 23:37, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is notable. Rublamb (talk) 00:42, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not really; how they run their org internally falls into the "trivial detail" camp for me. Primefac (talk) 11:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does effect the fact that although they passed the removal of the Aryan Clause at the 1954 convention, it stayed in effect until 1956 since that Convention had to approve it as well. (Also affected when they added it since it went through the same situation. But it may belong only in that section.Naraht (talk) 18:17, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, adding a sentence about the structure of the constitution isn't going to bloat that section all that much, especially if people are saying on the talk that the date confusion is a problem. Primefac (talk) 19:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's quite common in corporations like these to require that any constitutional or bylaw changes be carried over for a second, confirming vote at the next annual meeting of the corporation. This is common among fraternities, and certainly as a practice of Masonic law, in Masonic groups. Jax MN (talk) 20:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanx to both of you!Naraht (talk) 20:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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I'm not sure it is policy or not, but I work under the following rule. For a specialty GLO, especially one that is in a graduate school like Law or Medicine, I link to the specific graduate school if there is a page, so for a GLO for law schools, if University of Guam School of Law exists, then that is the link rather than University of Guam and I don't even pipe link to make it show as University of Guam. Feelings? Naraht (talk) 14:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the other question is if the GLO died in 1950 and the University of Guam School of Law was renamed as John Filbert school of Law in 2002 whether to pipe trick it to say University of Guam School of Law or not.Naraht (talk) 14:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In general, I agree. However, if I am creating a table for a preexisting list that is already set up with the main college's name, I don't always update the institution name because you never know for sure without going back to the original source. I just worked on a list for a group that was a weird hybrid of medical schools and regular colleges; the GLO's own list included many regular college names because it served both medical and pre-medical students at one time. I looked at the date of formation of some of the professional schools and found that some were established after the charter date of the chapter. There was no source to confirm that the chapter moved locations or ever existed during the era of the professional school. In that instance, it seemed best to go with the source and list the main college name. In other words, follow the source when possible.
School name changes can really be an issue, especially with defunct chapters and groups. Many of the older professional school names do not have redirects. If the chapter list is long and many redirects are needed, I don't always take the time to create the redirects. Previously, we have discussed using the school name at the time of closure of the chapter or at the time of its formation, but not updating to the modern/current institutional name. This means we would not update the Guam name and, technically, should add a redirect. I freely admit to be lazy about redirects for college divisions; I tend to focus on main institutional name changes. Rublamb (talk) 17:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I prefer that the school name is linked to the subordinate graduate school article, if there is one. Readers can always click to read about the main school, from there. Once a subordinate school page is written it is unlikely to be rolled back, and merged. Jax MN (talk) 20:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the link should be made through a redirect so that our articles can have the historically correct name. In this instance, many of the chapters predated (and went defunct) decades before the current graduate schools were named or established. In some cases, half a century or more. Furthermore, just because the fraternity says it had a chapter at General State University does not mean that we can infer that the chapter was actually located at General State Medical College which was established in another city decades later. Some of these early professional fraternities were not just for graduate students but were open to anyone interested in the field, including undergraduates. I have come across two of these medical GLOs in the past two weeks; one which still has undergraduate and graduate chapters (and not always chapters for both levels at the same university). If the organization says the chapter was at General State University, I think it is a major jump to change that name and link to General State Medical College without a source or further investigation. Rublamb (talk) 21:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think in the chapter list, the current school name should be preferred. Where a chapter was first established when that school had an earlier name (Duke, Samford, Trine...), where it isn't obvious, I've often added the other school name in parentheses. Now, for FOUNDING schools, this implies a more likely interest in the historical context, not just "Is this fraternity at my school?" type of inquiries. Therefore, in the lede, historical summary and infobox, both names could be denoted. I guess I'd judge each case separately, based on how obvious the shift was. Jax MN (talk) 21:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is possibly a difference between a current/active organization and a defunct organization. For the latter, my caution is that the current professional college may not be at the same location and may have no connection to a former chapter. For example, Duke and Wake Forest both moved their entire campus. SUNY formed a medical college in a different city. If a chapter was short-lived, a newly named or newly established graduate school and its location may be incorrect. Thus, it would be inaccurate to link to a modern medical school.
Here's a random example that I came across the other day. An early women's honor society had a chapter at Newcomb College. Recently, Newcomb merged with Tulane. Would we skip a link to the article H. Sophie Newcomb Memorial College and replace the chapter list with Tulane? If the chapter is active, I would use Tulane with an efn about Newcomb. If the chapter went dormant while Newcomb was still operating, I would use Newcomb and would either follow your example of (now Tulane) or include that info in an efn. Obviously, it would be historically inaccurate to say that an all-male college had a women's society. Rublamb (talk) 22:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

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I have started a new page Wikipedia:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Library for GLO references, now linked through a tab on the WP mainpage. If you have some favorities, please add to the list. Rublamb (talk) 04:24, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Inactive essay

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The essay Wikipedia:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Notability is noted as dormant because the discussion about it ended before it was approve. Do we want to revisit it? Rublamb (talk) 11:14, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I commented on that article's talk page. Thanks, Rublamb, for the extensive organizational work you have done on the project's pages. Jax MN (talk) 21:46, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, the NFRAT article focuses on Greek Letter Organizations (or closely related like FarmHouse) based at colleges. The recent expansion of the WikiProject to include groups in Eastern Europe, in Africa or were never college related (Loyal Order of the Moose, etc.) means that we almost need to start from Scratch (and based on that, it may make sense to move groups like Loyal Order of the Moose to a different Wikiproject.Naraht (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In its current form, the essay does not set limitations on the type of fraternal organization or a requirement to have a Greek letter name or a collegiate connection. The article is inclusive of "fraternities, sororities, and other Greek letter organizations" and "college Secret societies and student clubs". General and community-based fraternal organizations are covered by the terms "fraternity" and "sorority". The recent WP expansions that are not specifically mentioned (and should be) are honor and literary societies. Defining notability and the scope of the WP are two different topics that should be covered in two different essays/pages. Rublamb (talk) 00:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Naraht brings up a reasonable point where other editors may inquire as to scope.
To summarize for readers, here are the cut-off points which logically could make sense for us.
1. Every notable group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, FarmHouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies, AND those in the Masonic family. This includes community-based fraternities, and non-collegiate military fraternities. We could aim to identify these globally.
2. North American only: Every notable group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, Farmhouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies, AND those in the Masonic family. This includes community-based fraternities, and non-collegiate military fraternities. BUT limited to North America.
3. N.A. and collegiate only: Every notable collegiate or once-collegiate group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, Farmhouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies. DISCLUDING those in the Masonic family. DISCLUDING community-based fraternities, and DISCLUDING non-collegiate military fraternities. Limited to North America.
There is a dormant project for Collegiate secret societies in North America, and a vigorous List of Masonic Grand Lodges (start there, many sublinks. We've only scratched the surface of these). But to my knowledge, there ISN'T a project for literary societies. We've picked up the collegiate ones, but there are examples of non-collegiate literary societies that have existed in the US since 1849 which we've not picked up. Nor is there a project or list of ancillary organizations to the Masonic fraternity: We (Freemasons) call them either Appendant Bodies or Subordinate Bodies. There are many, many hundreds: These include the Shrine, the Scottish Rite (which in some countries is a de facto grand lodge), and stretching further, non-Masonic groups like the Odd Fellows or Woodmen of the World. There is no home for military fraternities, besides us. Nor for community-based groups like those in Indiana (Tri Kappa) or the various new LGBTQ groups, mostly non-collegiate. We started with the Puerto Rican and Philippine collegiate fraternities, added fencing fraternities in Europe, then the gang-like Nigerian confraternities. We are looking for consensus on where our project draws the line of inclusion.
Which path do we take? We could blaze a trail to be trackers of ALL fraternal activity globally, tracking every group in option #1 above. This appears to be our current heading. In this, we'd aim to create the definitive list. Not voting yet, but I personally like the clarity this provides, so that groups choosing a name don't tread on others with the same name. Or, Naraht may be right, that a split is necessary; maybe the Masonic project needs a push to create a list of their subordinate / auxiliary groups. There may be some 5,000 individual Degrees, jurisdictions or groupings of degrees that have current or recent activity and which are part of the Masonic world. Counting just grand lodges alone, (first three degrees, some geographical bounds) these number maybe 2,000 themselves. That would offload some of our work.
FWIW, merely on grounds of clarity I would rather not lose track of Greek letter groups outside of North America. I'm more comfortable offloading the Masonic entities, because they have an active project group. I could be convinced to limit our scope to collegiate only. Jax MN (talk) 03:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I really want to keep these as two conversations and projects--scope and notability. The Notability essay should be fairly easy as we are just supplementing the well defined Wikipedia guidelines. I am going to restart scope as a different thread. Rublamb (talk) 03:21, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP Scope

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This continues the discussion started above. I have copied some relevant comments here. Rublamb (talk) 03:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The recent expansion of the WikiProject to include groups in Eastern Europe, in Africa or were never college related (Loyal Order of the Moose, etc.) means that we almost need to start from Scratch (and based on that, it may make sense to move groups like Loyal Order of the Moose to a different Wikiproject.Naraht (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Naraht brings up a reasonable point where other editors may inquire as to scope. To summarize for readers, here are the cut-off points which logically could make sense for us.
1. Every notable group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, FarmHouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies, AND those in the Masonic family. This includes community-based fraternities, and non-collegiate military fraternities. We could aim to identify these globally.
2. North American only: Every notable group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, Farmhouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies, AND those in the Masonic family. This includes community-based fraternities, and non-collegiate military fraternities. BUT limited to North America.
3. N.A. and collegiate only: Every notable collegiate or once-collegiate group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, Farmhouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies. DISCLUDING those in the Masonic family. DISCLUDING community-based fraternities, and DISCLUDING non-collegiate military fraternities. Limited to North America.
There is a dormant project for Collegiate secret societies in North America, and a vigorous List of Masonic Grand Lodges (start there, many sublinks. We've only scratched the surface of these). But to my knowledge, there ISN'T a project for literary societies. We've picked up the collegiate ones, but there are examples of non-collegiate literary societies that have existed in the US since 1849 which we've not picked up. Nor is there a project or list of ancillary organizations to the Masonic fraternity: We (Freemasons) call them either Appendant Bodies or Subordinate Bodies. There are many, many hundreds: These include the Shrine, the Scottish Rite (which in some countries is a de facto grand lodge), and stretching further, non-Masonic groups like the Odd Fellows or Woodmen of the World. There is no home for military fraternities, besides us. Nor for community-based groups like those in Indiana (Tri Kappa) or the various new LGBTQ groups, mostly non-collegiate. We started with the Puerto Rican and Philippine collegiate fraternities, added fencing fraternities in Europe, then the gang-like Nigerian confraternities. We are looking for consensus on where our project draws the line of inclusion.
Which path do we take? We could blaze a trail to be trackers of ALL fraternal activity globally, tracking every group in option #1 above. This appears to be our current heading. In this, we'd aim to create the definitive list. Not voting yet, but I personally like the clarity this provides, so that groups choosing a name don't tread on others with the same name. Or, Naraht may be right, that a split is necessary; maybe the Masonic project needs a push to create a list of their subordinate / auxiliary groups. There may be some 5,000 individual Degrees, jurisdictions or groupings of degrees that have current or recent activity and which are part of the Masonic world. Counting just grand lodges alone, (first three degrees, some geographical bounds) these number maybe 2,000 themselves. That would offload some of our work.
FWIW, merely on grounds of clarity I would rather not lose track of Greek letter groups outside of North America. I'm more comfortable offloading the Masonic entities, because they have an active project group. I could be convinced to limit our scope to collegiate only. Jax MN (talk) 03:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
It is complicated. If we cut to just collegiate groups but keep the same WP name, we would be showing a bias suggesting that only college fraternities are "true fraternities" and that community-based groups are somehow inferior. Same with limiting the geographic area to America or North America; I cannot think of a greater way to show a pro-American point of view in an encyclopedia that is supposed to serve all English speakers. That being said, after working on many different types of student organizations currently under the WP, some are a better fit than others to the concept of a fraternity and could be dropped. In the past, I have questioned the inclusion of community-based American GLOs, European academic corporations, and Nigerian confraternities but have been willing to work on these articles following WikiProject discussions to include them. Some general thoughts:
  • Masonic: I don't favor adopting Masonic groups/articles in full because of the other WP, but don't have an issue with some overlap of a few key articles about the main groups if we are going to retain community-based fraternal organizations. Or we can boldly go and exclude because this info is covered elsewhere.
  • General fraternities: Many, many general fraternities from the late 19th and early 20th centuries are not Masonic. Most are defunct and do not have Wikipedia articles but do have secondary sources if someone wants to create an article. These belong if the WP is generically fraternal, but I could also see cutting off non-collegiate groups and sending them over to WP Organizations. Note: unless the WP and its main overview articles change to indicate collegiate-only, we will continue to have other editors link these groups to the WP and its lists.
  • Literary societies: There are some literary societies that became fraternities. However, the early literary societies and the still active groups are not fraternal in the traditional sense. I would be in favor of cutting all that don't have a direct connection to a fraternity or sorority, even if they have a Greek letter name. They would then fall under WP Organization, just like any other random student group. If we keep them, there are potentially a ton of articles to write.
  • Academic associations/Student corporations: With their ethnocentric, political, and militaristic (or Catholic) slant, these groups are an uncomfortable fit with traditional fraternities. Almost all of them went dormant at their original college and functioned as expat political arms, reforming after the fall of the Soviet Union. This is the first category I would cut from our list, even though it means changing many infoboxes.
  • Nigerian confraternities: Most are based at colleges, have chapters, and all the trimmings of traditional GLOs. However, their slide into crime sets these apart from traditional GLOs. However, some are beginning to disassociate the college division from the community/crime organization, making it harder to discount these groups. But, since these have a distinct culture and name, we could easily say these don't fit. As the group expert on this topic, I am good either way.
  • Other countries: if it is a collegiate GLO/fraternity/sorority, it should be included, regardless of country. However, this does not mean that every variation of foreign student organizations falls under the WP. Just those that are actual GLOs.
  • Greek letter names: Just because a group has a Greek letter name, does not mean it fits under the WP umbrella. Just saying...
I am realizing we should probably discuss each category separately so that the archived record will be easier to follow. On the other hand, we could simply identify the articles that we potentially want to drop and discuss those. Rublamb (talk) 05:23, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having said all of that, I don't have an issue with continuing to include all fraternities and similar student groups except the full Mason article collection (which is covered by another WP). Compared to most WikiProjects, our article list is very small. Also, we may attract new editors to our group as we expand the number of articles or potential articles. Thus, I see the benefits of continued expansion and narrowing the focus. Rublamb (talk) 16:20, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Photos needed

[edit]

All articles with WP:Frat that need a photo should now have the {Photograph requested} template. This includes articles that have both the fraternity and other infoboxes, so that we can create a report that it more comprehensive. Rublamb (talk) 05:16, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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