Talk:Military occupation

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Tibet

Tibet is included in both the occupations and disputed occupations lists, I removed it from the occupations list because of the reason stated at the top of this page. Say1988 02:33, 25 March 2005 (UTC)

First paragraph of body

I propose the following revision to the first paragraph in the body of the article to give a better sense of how land and property dominated by combat were handled before the 18th century, and to present brief historic and modern conceptualizations of occupation. (I provided an extended section of Benvenisti's source I quoted, because the entire source paragraph does a great job explaining the underlying relationships of occupation.) This revision removes mention of the Napoleonic wars, since they aren't mentioned in the source. Any feedback?

A dominant principle that guided combatants through much of history was "to the victory belong the spoils".^[1] Emerich de Vattel, in The Law of Nations (1758), presented an early codification of the distinction between annexation of territory and military occupation, the latter being regarded as temporary, due to the natural right of states to their "continued existence".^[1] According to Eyal Benvenisti's The International Law of Occupation, Second Edition (2012), "The foundation upon which the entire [modern] law of occupation is based is the principle of inalienability of sovereignty through unilateral action of a foreign power, [and from this principle] springs the basic structural constraints that international law imposes upon the occupant."^[2]

Dotyoyo (talk) 06:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b Cole, Babaloba (1974). "Property and the Law of Belligerent Occupation: A Reexamination". World Affairs. 137 (1): 66–85. JSTOR 20671544.
^ Benvenisti, Eyal (2012). The International Law of Occupation, Second Edition. Great Clarendon Street, Oxford OX2 6DP, United Kingdom: Oxford University Press. p. 6. ISBN 978-0-19-958889-3. The foundation upon which the entire law of occupation is based is the principle of inalienability of sovereignty through unilateral action of a foreign power, whether through the actual or the threatened use of force, or in any way unauthorized by the sovereign. Effective control by foreign military force can never bring about by itself a valid transfer of sovereignty. Because occupation does not transfer sovereignty over the territory to the occupying power, international law must regulate the inter-relationships between the occupying force, the ousted government, and the local inhabitants for the duration of the occupation. From the principle of inalienable sovereignty over a territory springs the basic structural constraints that international law imposes upon the occupant. The occupying power is thus precluded from annexing the occupied territory or otherwise unilaterally changing its political status; instead, it is bound to respect and maintain the political and other institutions that exist in that territory for the duration of the occupation. The law authorizes the occupant to safeguard its interests while administering the occupied area, but also imposes obligations on the occupant to protect the life and property of the inhabitants and to respect the sovereign interests of the ousted government.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)

I applied this change to the article on 2024-04-25. Dotyoyo (talk) 01:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Language of lede

The lede is a real brain-teaser and tongue twister. For example, take the phrase "with the ruling power being the occupant".

There are two ruling powers involved in such situations: that of occupied and that of occupant. I am pretty much sure there are internationally accepted definitions and wikipedia does not have to invent their own weird language (not found in sources, by the way; e.g., the first footnote says simply "a power <...> that power has no sovereign title").
"outside of the legal boundaries of that ruling power's own sovereign territory" - This circumlocution sounds dubious: For example, for Nazi Germany, Reichsgau Wartheland was quite nicely within Nazi-defined legal boundaries. And it is only clarified a bit after reading below: "to keep in place only temporarily". Again, General Government indeed was "only temporarily", intended to be taken care of later.
" military government <...> though this is not a necessary precondition for occupation to take place" - this cannot be described as "precondition" but rather "characteristic", "attribute", etc.. Not to say that "necessary precondition" is a tautology.

And so on. I am not a native speaker so I dont dare to rewrite the lede (beyond one simplification), but I urge y'all to make it mode digestable. Now it looks to me like a text of a limited warranty :-) (What??? a redlink? :-) - Altenmann >talk 18:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Altenmann: In response to your first and third points, I've made two edits (1 & 2) to simplify the wording of the lede.

Your second point, about occupied territory having to be outside of the occupant's sovereign territory, prevents such a definition from being applied to a nation seizing its own territory. For example, if Ukraine seized Crimea from Russia, few would consider Crimea as territory occupied by Ukraine. The current wording addresses this, while avoiding mention of territorial disputes that can arise in such contexts. (In the same paragraph, you seem to draw a connection between the geographic boundaries of the territory and the temporary nature of the occupation. I'm unsure of what change you're suggesting here.) Dotyoyo (talk) 04:02, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Distinction based on duration

@John Abbe: The sentence "Occupation's intended temporary nature distinguishes it from annexation and colonialism." distinguishes military occupation from other types of territorial control of different durations which can be confused with it. Military occupation made permanent becomes annexation. Military occupation made permanent---or otherwise extended in duration---does not by that change in duration become apartheid. While apartheid can follow occupation, it is not part of a distinction that is the point of this sentence, which is why it isn't mentioned either here or the sources cited.

If you wish to add a "See also" section with a link to the article on Apartheid, you are free to do so.

Dotyoyo (talk) 06:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[cole1974-1] Cole, Babaloba (1974). "Property and the Law of Belligerent Occupation: A Reexamination". World Affairs. 137 (1): 66–85. JSTOR 20671544.

[2] Benvenisti, Eyal (2012). The International Law of Occupation, Second Edition. Great Clarendon Street, Oxford OX2 6DP, United Kingdom: Oxford University Press. p. 6. ISBN 978-0-19-958889-3. The foundation upon which the entire law of occupation is based is the principle of inalienability of sovereignty through unilateral action of a foreign power, whether through the actual or the threatened use of force, or in any way unauthorized by the sovereign. Effective control by foreign military force can never bring about by itself a valid transfer of sovereignty. Because occupation does not transfer sovereignty over the territory to the occupying power, international law must regulate the inter-relationships between the occupying force, the ousted government, and the local inhabitants for the duration of the occupation. From the principle of inalienable sovereignty over a territory springs the basic structural constraints that international law imposes upon the occupant. The occupying power is thus precluded from annexing the occupied territory or otherwise unilaterally changing its political status; instead, it is bound to respect and maintain the political and other institutions that exist in that territory for the duration of the occupation. The law authorizes the occupant to safeguard its interests while administering the occupied area, but also imposes obligations on the occupant to protect the life and property of the inhabitants and to respect the sovereign interests of the ousted government.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)

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