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Who's got time and energy to turn the lead into an actual summary of the article? Would be great. I'd do it myself if I had done more work on this article previously. EMsmile (talk) 12:09, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Coming on here to agree with you, this article (two years later) still needs a better lead. If anyone is willing, that would be amazing. It is still pretty sparse and missing a lot of key points. VibrantInsect (talk) 05:51, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have added another term to the hatnote (Decolonization of knowledge), which seems to be emerging (I came to this article because I was searching for Decolonization of knowledge) and am just wondering if we should perhaps have a disambiguation page, as there are at least three different meanings of the term? EMsmile (talk) 12:09, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A. Lacks sources.
B. Written from an American stance, overplaying the USA's role in the independence of Indonesia.
C. Have a look at both the Indonesian and Dutch equivalent pages for comparison. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.59.216 (talk) 01:20, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The lead states that 'The end-result of successful decolonization may equate to a form of Indigenous utopianism'. Is this making a claim about reality, i.e. that if and when indigenous societies are fully decolonised, they will become utopias, or is this simply a statement about decolonisation theory, or what indigenous people think will happen? It is not clear at all. LastDodo (talk) 15:27, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The second paragraph of the lead is so unclear, both in itself and in its effect on the lead in general (i.e. bringing in other meanings of 'decolonization' without explicitly saying so), that I am tempted to remove it. But I won't do that yet, as I would like to give its defenders a chance to either improve it, or defend it here. LastDodo (talk) 19:53, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
LastDodo thanks for drawing attention to this. The lead is pretty bad. I would like to improve the lead with a better summary of the article, but I'm finding that a lot of the article needs work or outright removal, so I will work on that first. Please help if you're inclined. Larataguera (talk) 16:18, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I thank you for the effort and wish you luck! As for help, this is not my area of expertise, but I'll let you know if I see something I think is unclear or potentially wrong. But I'll give you a while to make your changes first. LastDodo (talk) 09:21, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Most sources that I see don't apply a colonisation/decolonisation framework to the Ottoman Empire, and some explicitly state that it wasn't a colonial empire. Of all the material I removed, the only source I found that mentions decolonisation was this Phd disseration, which is interesting so I will leave it here, though it doesn't appear to have been published in a journal. Larataguera (talk) 16:39, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
After several other removals, I still think the article needs a lot of trimming. It also needs addition of more contemporary applications of the decolonisation framework. For example, relevance to climate change. The article mostly treats decolonisation as being relevant to independence movements in the late 20th century, but there's a lot more recent developments to include. I don't know if I'll have time for this, but anyway I'll wait in case there are objections to my recent changes Larataguera (talk) 18:23, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does the opening sentence "Beginning with the emergence of the United States in the 1770s" and the third paragrpah stating that "the Thirteen North American colonies were the first colonies to break from their colonial motherland" really belong in a decolonisation article? The subsequent subsections on decolonisation in Spanish and Portuguese America as well as the rest of the British Empire detail the indepenednce movement themselves but no such details are given for the USA.
I get that political independence is a big factor in many countries de-colonization, and that the USA is recognised as the first modern colony to become an independent state, but how does that relate to deconolonisation? It just seems to me that these short editions should be expanded or removed. Cymrogogoch (talk) 19:43, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Cymrogogoch, I'm not quite sure what you're asking. For a lot of people, decolonisation is almost synonymous with political independence of the colonies. So in that respect, mentioning the US as sparking that movement is relevant. There is of course a lot more to decolonisation; settler-colonialism in the US after independence is a big part of contemporary decolonisation debates. I think these contemporary interpretations are largely missing from this article.I do think there is a lot that should be trimmed from this article, but I'm not sure the two paragraphs mentioning US independence should be taken out entirely. They could certainly be re-phrased, and there could be more helpful links than Atlantic history, which is relevant, but maybe a niche article? A link to American revolution would make more sense to me. A slight expansion of the way the American revolution influenced later decolonization movements (ie, through enlightenment ideology, etc) might be appropriate. That may be what someone was trying to do with the passage from Rise of the West, but it's unclear.Hope that helps! Larataguera (talk) 03:32, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply Larataguera, you raise some very interesting points. My issue is that opening of the Independence movements section, it starts with the American Revolution, before a pull quote on post-1945 independence movements and then finishes with a one sentence summary of the early international status of the USA. As you said, it's unclear why the "Rise of the West" quote is here, but the section as a whole seems to lack focus and I wanted more infomation on the Revolution's importance to decolonisation.
Obviously most of the discussion relating to decolonization will focus on the 20th and 21st centuries, so how did these early revolutions influence those later movements and decolonisation specifically? It would be nice to have more infomation on some of the points you raised, such as Atlantic history (specific to decolonisation) and the ideology of political revolutions and their contemporary interpretations.
I wonder if the best way forward may be to give the American Revolution it's own subsection (before the Hatian Revolution) to expand on the points you've raised and leave the Rise of the West quote where it is (maybe to be expanded also, although I appreciate this may not make the article "trimmer"!).
Happy to discuss futher but it's not a subject I personally have the knowledge to tackle, so I wanted to raise it for discussion with people such as yourself. Thanks again for the reply and points.Cymrogogoch (talk) 19:43, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cymrogogoch. I re-wrote it. Ended up taking out Rise of the West. It was technically a primary source anyway (cited to the book itself rather than another scholar identifying that quote as the most meaningful quote from the book). This new version introduces with scholarship about independence movements more generally, followed by individual sections on each movement. If you're interested in trimming up some of the following sub-sections, please do. I think this whole section is much too long, and the more detailed information belongs in pages about the independence movements themselves. Hope this looks better to you! Thanks. Larataguera (talk) 01:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, that's a great edit that really improves the section lead in, thank you Larataguera for taking the time to do this.
I did look for some holistic or specific wiki articles that could be added as a "main article" or "see also", but I really don't think the Independence article would add anything to what you have described so well. I think that adding an explicit reference to Marxist perspectives, contemporary views on individualism and liberalism and especially decolonial scholarship really justifies the Independence movements section as a whole.
I also really appreciate the academic journal links (which is essentially what I was looking for in the first place). Again, thank you for all your time, help and infomation on this Lara. Cymrogogoch (talk) 16:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is, The American Revolution is the exact opposite of a decolonial movement. It was a state formed by colonizers for the express purpose of doing even more colonialism. One of the most important motivations of the American Revolution was the British Empire's restriction on settlement west of the Appalachians in the aftermath of Pontiac's War. United States independence was an explicitly pro-colonial movement.
The background context for decolonizing movements should be anti-settler movements such as King Philip's War, Pontiac's War, etc. The Haitian Revolution is probably the best example of any of the Latin American independence movements.
Even if to the majority of people the term "decolonization" might mean the mere political independence of a former colony, I don't think it's a really fair way to understand the term nor do I think it's a very productive way to think about the term. I think that this really problematizes the entire article as similar arguments can be made about the independence movements in South America. These weren't exactly movements to end colonization and more movements for the settler population and political apparatus to colonize autonomously. CarpinchoCamayuc (talk) 02:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"the British Empire's restriction on settlement west of the Appalachians in the aftermath of Pontiac's War" The Royal Proclamation of 1763 prevented settlement in the Indian Reserve, but its effects were undermined by the Treaty of Fort Stanwix (1768).: "American settlers pushing westward and opportunities for economic development turned the attention of investors and land speculators to the area west of the Appalachians. In response to demands by settlers and speculators, colonial authorities sought further land cessions from the Iroquois and Cherokee." Dimadick (talk) 05:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If decolonisation only refers to anti-settler movements, rather than to political independence, you'd have to remove the likes of India, Nigeria and frankly most European colonies from the discussion, as they were settled only lightly by Europeans and the movements against them were normally for political independence rather than ejection of those small number of Europeans present. LastDodo (talk) 14:54, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And there's also the fact that the American colonies were controlled by the British government in important economic ways -much like Britain controlled the trade in the Kingdom of Ireland. Carpincho's issue seems that he/she can't wrap their mind around Americans being involved in an anti-colonial movement while also engaging in a fair amount of colonization themselves. Well, again we can turn to the situation in Ireland: despite having been colonized by Britain, the Irish were also involved in European colonialism overseas, including in the US. In fact several of the leaders of Ireland's 1798 Rebellion left for America and were involved in extermination campaigns against indigenous people and/or owned slaves.
There is nothing particularly paradoxical about people believing in their own right to autonomy and self-determination but not extending those same liberties to others. They are 'anti-colonial' insofar as they believe some people, but not all people, are deserving of freedom.[1]Jonathan f1 (talk) 04:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be misunderstanding the actual point of this. There is nothing in my argument that implies people involved in decolonization movements could actually end up supporting colonialism elsewhere.
The Irish comparison is just completely different from the American context. Irish people were not colonizers in Ireland, they were the indigenous population of Ireland which was being colonized by the British. Their identity as indigenous victims of colonialism in Ireland is not incompatible with them deciding to join a colonial project elsewhere, especially when they had been absorbed into the British Empire.
Americans were not a colonized people, they are the colonizers. They were foreigners who imposed the rule of another nation, and eventually their own nation, on an indigenous population by forced displacement, mass murder, and land grabbing. For the Irish to fight against the British in Ireland is decolonization because they are fighting for the right to their own political, economic, and cultural autonomy as the indigenous people of Ireland. Many Irish people deciding to partake in settler colonialism for a variety of reason does not at all equate the Irish struggle with American colonialism.
For Anglo settlers to rid themselves of the yoke of British rule in North America has little to do with "decolonization" because they were not the ones being colonized. They are the colonizers. America's cultural identity and its origins are based firmly in being a settler colony. Dominant white American hegemonic cultural identity is based on being a colony of foreigners who were entitled to colonize North America, and in its foundation it exclusively enfranchised its settler population, explicitly demonstrating that being a colonist or a descendant of colonists was the American identity. CarpinchoCamayuc (talk) 06:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My claim was never that decolonization only refers to anti-settler movements. India and Nigeria are not settler colonial states controlled by settler colonists. The difference is that India and Nigeria did not separate from the British Empire with the intent of continuing colonialism. (Whether or not they did so effectively is another conversation.) These were movements of indigenous populations gaining political autonomy as nation states in opposition to colonialism.
The United States in its founding was pro-colonialist, founded by colonists, and enfranchised colonists and their descendants exclusively. Economically, it still functioned as a settler colony in that it was focused on the implanting of settlers to displace or eradicate its indigenous populace and exploit its natural resources to the exclusive benefit of its settler population. Its main goal as a nation was to continue and even intensify settler colonialism.
White American cultural identity is also firmly based on identification with colonists. White Americans view themselves as colonists positively or negatively, and American history is most hegemonically framed from the perspective of a colonist identity that expects Americans to identify with colonists.
To imply "decolonizing" is just simply "no longer being a colony" is a ridiculously useless semantic that potentially conflates oppressors and the oppressed. Was it "decolonization" when the State of Israel was created and encouraged a mass colonization and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians? I don't think anyone involved in the study of colonialism would agree with such a basic and non-specific definition of decolonization. CarpinchoCamayuc (talk) 05:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Source [49] directly disagrees with the thing it is cited for
the article claims that "Washington pushed hard to accelerate decolonization and bring an end to the colonial empires of its Western allies." and cites 'The United States and the Liquidation of European Colonial Rule in Tropical Africa, 1941-1963.' Not only is this source overly specified for the broad claim being made, but it also disagrees with the claim, saying "Studies of United States diplomacy in Africa reveal no consensus on the role played by the United States in the liquidation of European colonial rule in Africa. Thomas Noer (1985: 17, 64, 60) found that the Second World War image of the United States "as an anti-colonial advocate was inaccurate". Washington, he added, "was not prepared to exert strong pressure on the Europeans to divest themselves of colonies."" I personally would recommend removing that sentence, but failing that, at least give a proper source. More broadly, it seems large parts of the article were written from the inaccurate perspective of America as a staunchly anti-colonial advocate, and those parts should be reexamined for proper citations and accuracy. Hexifi (talk) 18:25, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have moved forward with the removal of this sentence, I recommend in the future others examine the accuracy of statements throughout this article on the American position on decolonization. Hexifi (talk) 03:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the lede: "Extending the meaning of decolonization beyond political independence has been disputed and received criticism."
From the section on decolonizing global health: "Global health, as a discipline, is widely acknowledged to be of imperial origin and the need for its decolonisation has been widely recognised."
Would the latter not be an example of "extending the meaning?" Or does the former simply mean that some particular extensions are more questionable than others?
That definitely counts as extending the meaning. From the source, even the people using this language don't know what they mean: 'Experts participating in the symposium discussed what decolonizing global health means, how to decolonize it, and what criteria to apply in measuring its completion.' LastDodo (talk) 15:55, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The US is itself still colonizing the territory it occupies; however, the lead image lists the date of the original 13 colonies winning their war for independence from Britain. The image should be altered to indicate this mixed status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rthomas2 (talk • contribs) 21:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
True but this is normally ignored in the context of colonialism, presumably because the occupation was so brief. The same applies to France, which was occupied by the Nazis between 1940 and 45 yet is also coloured blue. LastDodo (talk) 09:19, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Despite these being historically and conceptually quite important, a quick skim sees no mention of Carthage, Massilia, or countless others, despite Thucydides being alluded to.
If I had to briefly articulate, there wasn't a process of decolonization we'd describe as such because the colonization itself was a completely different process to distinct ends that didn't involve political and demographic domination of the countryside. Remsense ‥ 论13:06, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article suffers from the fact that its scope is unclear. And people will continue to argue over which empires and colonisations should be included as long as that remains the case. LastDodo (talk) 09:48, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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